Comments on: Dems to the Net: Go to hell https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3314 2002-2015 Thu, 19 Jul 2007 06:08:15 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.7.2 By: S4T4N https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3314#comment-15395 Thu, 19 Jul 2007 06:08:15 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2006/12/dems_to_the_net_go_to_hell.html#comment-15395 I personaly think u guys need to go out and get a real life (key word real) i mean all u people need to forget about politics and stuff mi mean get some friends come on its real life faggots come on please take no offence but get a damn life fags

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By: Jonathan Haas https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3314#comment-15394 Mon, 08 Jan 2007 13:38:20 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2006/12/dems_to_the_net_go_to_hell.html#comment-15394 k,

I appreciate your point, but the fact that mergers are occuring does not necessarily mean that competition does not exist, nor that it is not thriving. There are still several competing bandwidth providers; I just pinged my employer from my home (a distance of less than half a mile) and the packet traveled over two different backbones to get there. And the backbone providers are constantly adding capacity to avoid falling behind in the race with their competitors.

Wireless broadband holds a great deal of potential, but I doubt it’ll ever replace wired broadband. Wires by nature are capable of carrying more bandwidth than the wireless spectrum, and I doubt we’ll ever see wireless broadband capable of carrying multiple high-definition video streams.

The fact remains that so-called “network neutrality” is a terrible idea for several reasons, both ethical and practical. Even if you don’t find compelling the argument that the government has no business telling people what they can do with their own networks nor the argument that federal regulation of the Internet is a slope so slipperly it may as well be greased, there’s the plain fact that scarce bandwidth can best be allocated by a pricing system. I’ve yet to hear anybody come up with a good reason why network neutrality on the backbone would be fundamentally different from network neutrality on the last mile… nor has anybody been foolish enough to assert that network neutrality on the last mile would be anything but catastrophic.

Ironically, the big winners from “network neutrality” would be the very companies that advocates claim it’s needed to fight against. The cable companies, who would face no competition on their private municipal-area networks (which are most definitely not “neutral”), and the telcos, which would stave off the inevitable obsolescence of their outdated landline networks. The current scheme of “network neutrality” means that VOIP remains more latent and less reliable than landline telephone service, and laws preventing companies like Vonage and Skype from paying backbone providers for better service means that the situation will remain static.

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By: Rick Barrett https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3314#comment-15393 Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:33:04 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2006/12/dems_to_the_net_go_to_hell.html#comment-15393 The comment about WAN technology was interesting. But, there is ownership of the “lines” for that medium, too. The FEDS are the ones who “sell” the bandwidth to the “highest bidder” and if you look at the money that cell companies paid the feds and then passed on to the consumer in high cell phone fees you see that the chances of a competitive technology anytime soon in WAN with a government hungry for trillions of dollars are just unrealistic given what happened with cell phones. Maybe in the 23rd century.

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By: k https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3314#comment-15392 Fri, 05 Jan 2007 19:20:08 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2006/12/dems_to_the_net_go_to_hell.html#comment-15392 Jonathan,

I think what Mr. Dunsdon found disagreeable was the comment that there is “thriving” competition in the telecom market.

Truthfully, while you are probably more right than not regarding the free market vis-a-vis the internet, I agree with him on that point. Competition in the telecom space as been decreasing for years. Giant mergers are returning us to the world of one AT&T, which the government will likely have to shatter a second time eventually. And, of course, government regulations benefiting the large telecom providers have a long history as well.

There are a lot of wonderful companies and services taking advantage of telecommunications technology these days, but the core providers are hardly involved in a strenuously competitive battle.

Off topic, but relevant, I think, is the possibility that wireless WAN technology may change that eventually, as there’s no analogue to ownership of the (very expensive) overland or buried cables as there is in the existing wired network space. For now, of course, it’s not near fast enough or ubiquitous enough. Nonetheless, wireless could change the market topography in substantial ways.

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By: Alberto https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3314#comment-15391 Fri, 05 Jan 2007 02:35:01 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2006/12/dems_to_the_net_go_to_hell.html#comment-15391 Berman got on the committee because Hollywood hired lobbyists. That’s what *we* need to do. Pony up, people! Play the game if you want change in the short term. Change the game if you want it in the long run…the really long run.

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By: Jonathan Haas https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3314#comment-15390 Thu, 04 Jan 2007 14:25:41 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2006/12/dems_to_the_net_go_to_hell.html#comment-15390 Oh, I assure you, James, I understand the situation quite well. A bunch of hypocrites, who self-righteously stood against government regulation of the Internet for years, is now clamoring for the federal government to dig its hooks into that same Internet because they (quite erroneously) perceive a benefit. Does nobody have principles anymore?

I’ll fully agree that the Net is not what it once was; it’s unimaginably better. Thanks to those “exploiting” businesses, we have a mind-bogglingly immense array of content available to us, including products and services undreamed-of just a few years ago. It’s impossible to overstate the sheer boon of the Internet, and it’s all (well, mostly) thanks to those greedy thieving exploitive businessmen pursuing their self-interest in a free market. That’s the way free markets work, and I roll my eyes at those who believe that “greed” is in any way bad. “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest.” –Adam Smith.

Free markets exist within the “framework” of laissez faire, when people are left alone so long as they don’t initiate force or fraud against others. That’s what built the magnificent Internet we have today, and that’s what people like you are trying to destroy. As far as your constitutional example, I thank you for the chuckle. Rights are not goods, and you have no constitutional right to bandwidth. Should one customer be permitted to utilize more bandwidth because he’s willing and able to pay for it? Yes, absolutely.

I’m afraid your comment was unclear; what’s the “one small point” you strenuously disagree with? Why is it that you’d balk at the government dictating that all cars be sold at the same price, or that all food be sold at the same price, but insist that the government dictate that all bandwidth be sold at the same price?

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By: James Dunsdon https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3314#comment-15389 Thu, 04 Jan 2007 12:47:27 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2006/12/dems_to_the_net_go_to_hell.html#comment-15389 I think Steven was right to come to the conclusion that you don’t understand the situation. I think he was rather naive in thinking he could change your mind by spelling it out for you. I too have been on the internet since its early days. The net is not what it once was as a direct consequence of businesses trying to exploit if for their own. Free markets only exist within frameworks (laws) that provide certain assurances for both the provider and the customer. One can also argue that certain “goods” should not be subject to a free market. Civil rights is a clear example even as they are being eroded daily in your country. While it can be argued to already be the case, should it be that one person should be afforded more protections of the constitution based on the size of their wallet?

I would normally agree with your notion that less regulation is better if it weren’t for the one small point that I strenuously disagree with. Your statement that competition in this market is “thriving” is laughable.

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By: Jonathan Haas https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3314#comment-15388 Thu, 04 Jan 2007 11:12:12 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2006/12/dems_to_the_net_go_to_hell.html#comment-15388 Uh, no, Stephen, it’s not a matter of asking Google (or others) to pay “even though the person or company may not be their subscriber.” Once a person or company pays a backbone provider for priority routing, it’d become their subscriber. This is rather like saying that the New York Times is asking for subscription fees from people who are not subscribers; anyone can read the NYT for free where it appears in public places, but subscribers receive better service. And that’s the way it should be.

As for your silly “extorsion” argument, the same sort of logic has been used to “prove” that private land ownership simply cannot work… after all, what’s to stop a malicious individual from buying all the land adjacent to your house and preventing you from leaving? Competition in the telecom market is absolutely thriving. Nobody has a stranglehold on the market or even close to it; any competitor who attempted to maliciously extort a customer would quickly find itself driven out of the market by competitors who aren’t stupid enough to attempt to leverage monopoly power where none exists.

I’ve been on this Internet thingamajiggy since 1991, which certainly puts me in the 99th percentile of longevity, and I don’t recall anything about “equal access and opportunity for all types of information delivery, irregardless [sic] of who might be sending or receiving it.” I do, however, recall the Internet being founded on staunchly libertarian principles with an extreme bias towards laissez faire and a healthy distrust of government regulation. Once again I invite you to consider Akamai, consider a home customer, and consider the disaster which would result if the two were required to accept the same level of service regardless of willingness to pay.

Bandwidth is a scarce resource, and like all scarce resources, it’s allocated most efficiently in a free market, where prices can communicate information on supply and demand.

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By: Steven Squires https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3314#comment-15387 Thu, 04 Jan 2007 10:44:20 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2006/12/dems_to_the_net_go_to_hell.html#comment-15387 The problem is that backbone carrier ISPs would be asking their customers (i.e.: Google, maybe direct consumers) to pay more for a higher quality of service, even though the person or company may not be their subscriber. For example, since Google has a lot of video traffic, they have subscribed for an adequate amount of bandwidth from their “provider.” This is bandwidth they pay for and within that fee it is assumed that whatever backbone network capacity needed to facilitate this bandwidth has also been paid for by the provider’s provider, etc. However, backbone carriers that carry the data between Google and your DSL provider are saying they are entitled to a piece of this “subscription” from Google (or maybe even the consumer). What this amounts to is double billing, since Google and the consumer already pay a flat fee for a specified amount of throughput per month. This is a bad idea, since by The Internet’s design a packet of data can be routed through any number of autonomous networks before it reaches its destination. Therefore, that means that you could have many different telecommunications providers placing different quality of service standards on that same packet, based on who is sending or receiving it. This may not sound like a bad thing, but when you think about it it allows telecommunications providers a legal route of extortion, in that they can say “Well, you’re not paying me more money for faster service through my network, so pay up or suck it up.” This violates the idea of egalitarianism that The Internet was founded on–equal access and opportunity for all types of information delivery, irregardless of who might be sending or receiving it.

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By: Dave https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3314#comment-15386 Thu, 04 Jan 2007 09:51:28 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2006/12/dems_to_the_net_go_to_hell.html#comment-15386 fuck the democrats, fuck the republics, time for a third party

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