Comments on: Feel the Hate https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2736 2002-2015 Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:34:45 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.7.2 By: Max Lybbert https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2736#comment-6768 Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:34:45 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/09/feel_the_hate.html#comment-6768 Oops, I let myself get dragged into the wrong fight. What I meant by the Card quote (“We�re the nightmare of the ideologues who think every other person should be forced to live by the precepts of their religion”) was that there is a fundamental difference between the Western democratic governments, and theocratic dictators.

I meant that Muqtada al-Saddr wishes to derail popular elections in Iraq because he is terrified of popular elections. The US has used force, and has killed people just as al-Saddr has, but for a fundamentally different reason — to allow the people to vote for whom they wish to follow.

So, yes, we Westerners expect the world to one day choose its leaders, and we believe any other system is inheirently unfair. But, that was clear from the original post.

As for the claim that Bush has ignored the separation between church and state, I have to disagree. Without a set of morals (“killing people is bad, freedom of speech is good”), law quickly becomes nothing but a cost-benefit analysis. That, I think, would be the real crime.

The First Amendment prohibits favoring a particular religious view (or anti-religious view) over others, but recognizes that morals will always be present in law. All laws are based on morals. Traffic laws are based on the morality of putting others at risk through careless driving. Campaign finance laws are based on the morality of allowing rich people a bigger influence on politics. Environmental laws are based on the morality of destroying the environment.

We have several laws — other than the stem-cell research funding rule — that limit what people can do in research. In fact, for years the same people currently pushing for embryo harvesting were loudly opposed to animal testing of medicine and cosmetics. For some reason it is immoral to kill dogs (usually gathered from the pound) in search of a cure for cancer or heart disease, but completely moral to destroy human embryos for cures to the same diseases.

On another note, if it is immoral to force atheists to attend religious schools, why is it moral to force religious students to attend agnostic schools? I understand the problem with funding completely religious education (the kind of education that made Martin Luther King a “doctor,” for instance), but what is wrong with studying economics at a religious college? Why should the government’s student aid programs discourage students from going to any religious school for non-religious study?

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By: Max Lybbert https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2736#comment-6767 Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:57:05 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/09/feel_the_hate.html#comment-6767 I mean that the US is the nightmare of those that “will not be dissuaded from their violence by any surrender less extreme than the imposition of Islam and shari’a law on the kaffir West,” and who, are “fundamentally weak militarily, economically, and, in the long run, ideologically[, and have, through the] near mastery of terrorism and asymmetrical warfare necessitated that we mobilize as if we were in fact fighting a great empire.” I have no problem with laws based on shared morals, since all laws are. Even the tax code tries to determine who, morally, should pay the largest portion of the government’s budget (see “Trickle Down,” and, btw, I don’t agree with Card on this point). However, there is a tragedy of those who have formed their own sacred religion of “politically correct” without realizing it, because they refuse to deal rationally with Gentiles who have any other belief.

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By: Jody https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2736#comment-6766 Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:52:25 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/09/feel_the_hate.html#comment-6766 The original post was about the face of hate. What I’ve been reading is dialog in which each side is trying to convince the other of the brilliance & veracity of their argument in the hope that the other side will capitulate. Not gonna happen. But I wonder why only one wrote about the hate. Perhaps because it is difficult to look at and even more difficult to see.

I’m new to this blog. But the impression I had from the convention was the hate; so powerful it was visceral. And not just from Zel, although that was probably the most raw. I saw the hate not just inside the hall, but outside in the faces of the police rounding up those who dared to protest. When I read Prof. Lessig’s post, I was stunned to see someone else had noticed it, too.

I also saw the face of hatred in the president, behind his sweet smile. He smiles while sending National Guard units to die in Iraq. He smiles as he cuts their pay and benefits. He smiles while he extends their stay in Iraq. He smiles when he refuses to consider staying the death penalty. He smiles while he looks you right in the eye and lies.

Perhaps all this hatred is the hatred of ‘the other.’ They know they are right and cannot understand why everyone does not agree with them. Since the other does not join their beliefs, they must be marginalized. Hatred is a convenient tool to use.

Contrast this with the face of that immigrant father, holding up the picture of his son who died in Iraq. The anguish that twisted his face as he said to the camera, “My son died for my right to speak. I paid for this with his life.” (That quote may not be verbatim, but it is what stayed with me.)

Then there was the face of Sen. John McCain, who had been kicked in the cajones by those standing beside him. Still, he spoke to a people assembled before him, whom he hoped could save his beloved republican party. I know I’m projecting here, but it’s the only justification I could come up with for what happened to a genuinely decent man. That was the saddest thing I saw at the convention.

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By: A. Sceptic https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2736#comment-6765 Sat, 11 Sep 2004 07:26:49 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/09/feel_the_hate.html#comment-6765 “�Well, yes. We�re the nightmare of the ideologues who think every other person should be forced to live by the precepts of their religion whether he believes in it or not.�

“(http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2003-04-28-1.html
� posted by Max Lybbert on Sep 7 04 at 8:23 AM”

Well, if by, “We�re the nightmare of the ideologues who think every other person should be forced to live by the precepts of their religion whether he believes in it or not.�, you mean that we are the nightmare of this iteration of the Republican Party, you are precisely accurate.

On the other hand, if by, “We�re the nightmare of the ideologues who think every other person should be forced to live by the precepts of their religion whether he believes in it or not.�, you mean that the United States (led by Mr. bush and his cronies) )is, “…he nightmare of the ideologues who think every other person should be forced to live by the precepts of their religion whether he believes in it or not.�, you demonstrate that you don’t understand the question.. And that is sad to the point of trajedy.

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By: varmint https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2736#comment-6764 Wed, 08 Sep 2004 03:42:14 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/09/feel_the_hate.html#comment-6764 The truth hurts.
Organised religion is a way of shielding yourself from truth.
It saves you having to think. [which feels a bit like work]
It saves you making mistakes [because God intends everthing, right?]
It saves you having to look any further for explantions.
They call this faith.
It requires no proof.
It rots the soul.
The self styled president of the world G W bush, like the bishops of the dark ages, constantly reassures us that god is speaking through him as he slaughters and smirks and loots.
I could hardly believe my ears as dubya’s cronies lectured us [the rest of the world] on the need for separation of church and state in Iraq.
I do not despise america. There are many, many positive things about your country but when fail to rid yourselves of the cynical theocracy that has swamped all reason in your administration then you make yourselves little better than the taliban.

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By: Wes https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2736#comment-6763 Wed, 08 Sep 2004 03:35:17 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/09/feel_the_hate.html#comment-6763 I’m probably more in favor of the international community taking action against regimes that violate human rights than most Republicans but, coming from a scientific background, I think it needs to be done in a more studied and systematic manner than a leader of a country with a powerful military getting a “gut feeling” that it’s the right thing to do.

If, after the invasion, conclusive evidence was found that Iraq was stockpiling WMD in preparation for an invasion of the United States then I would have supported the invasion. Or if the United Nations adopted studied uniform and systematic standards for taking action against regimes that violated human rights and the invasion of Iraq was motivated by the application of those standards then I would have supported it.

As it is, it may turn out that invading Iraq was the right decision. My objections come mainly from the methods used to reach the decision.

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By: Nate https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2736#comment-6762 Wed, 08 Sep 2004 01:43:03 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/09/feel_the_hate.html#comment-6762 I agree, the implementation is the key, and we’ll all find out in due time out this one plays out. I also agree that in rebuilding, the US track record is pretty good, and it’s something as an American I am proud of. Yes, I have slammed some American actions in this thread, but that’s because I want my country to do better, and when they do better I applaud it.

But the approach the NeoCons have been taking has a bad track record, where there is a track record at all. I fear for the mistakes they have been making. I only hope they take that most American of traits to heart: Learn from your mistakes, change, and keep moving but in a better direction. I would be more confident of this possibility if they didn’t seem so ideologically stubborn in the face of a growing disaster. When you are convinced that God is on your side, it can be impossible to get you to face the facts, and that’s true whether you worship a Christian God or a Muslim one, sadly.

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By: Max Lybbert https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2736#comment-6761 Wed, 08 Sep 2004 01:18:51 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/09/feel_the_hate.html#comment-6761 The issue, then, is the implementation. I’m interested in watching it pan out as well, although I think the US’s track record is pretty good. The UN has had nearly ten years to get Bosnia up and running, and they aren’t much ahead of where Iraq is after one year.

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By: Wes https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2736#comment-6760 Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:44:10 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/09/feel_the_hate.html#comment-6760 On the subject of imposing democracy:

Even though it involved basically the same players, the effort to impose democracy on Germany after WWI had a dramatically different outcome than after WWII.

In the efforts to impose democracy on Japan and Germany after WWII, the presence of US troops was also perceived to serve the role of protecting them against China and Russia, respectively.

In Iraq, the United States is going to have a hard time resisting the temptation to exert influence on Iraq’s oil which is going to look a lot like the reparations Germany was forced to pay after WWI and the presence of US troops in Iraq is unlikely to be seen by Iraqis as protecting them and, in fact, it may be seen as an attempt to protect Israel which will hardly score points with the average Iraqi.

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By: Nate https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2736#comment-6759 Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:40:35 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/09/feel_the_hate.html#comment-6759 I agree that democracy cannot be enforced by a gun. I just don’t think that the U.S. will achieve democracy in Iraq. I think we are in for years of misery (on both sides) ahead, for the lessons of Vietnam were not learned by the NeoCons. You cannot impose your will on a sovereign nation and hope for success. The only question becomes when do you give up, and how many soldiers have to die before you do.

Germany and Japan attacked us first, btw. A key difference here.

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