Comments on: the "democracy" that is Europe https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2913 2002-2015 Mon, 14 Mar 2005 03:11:19 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.7.2 By: Zennie https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2913#comment-9640 Mon, 14 Mar 2005 03:11:19 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/03/the_democracy_that_is_europe.html#comment-9640 As one who’s worked in politics and public policy this development does not surprise me. Nations that are new to a particular technical field are generally slaves to “experts” who only convince them to adopt their ideas unchanged.

This is certainly the case with the countries of Europe and their bent toward copying US software policy. What will be interesting is how they address the advance of open-source methods. I’m not confident they will jettison the US system for one of their own. Not at this point.

What they will do is determine a way to gain a tighter grip on the control of software technology communication, if only to maintain perceived competitiveness in certain industries.

Boy, they’re going to be in for a shock.

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By: Claus https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2913#comment-9639 Sat, 12 Mar 2005 12:04:28 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/03/the_democracy_that_is_europe.html#comment-9639 > They call it a “democracy” that they’re building in Europe. I don’t see it.

I don’t see it, either (I’m living in Germany).

> Who calls it a democracy? It’s a federation of states.

But each state claims to be democratic (which is only partially true). During the last years, I more and more got the impression that we live in a so-called oligarchy (where a–albeit, at least partially–“democratically” elected minority rules over a vast majority of citizens). My guess is, that is’s basically no more than a few thousand people who really make the decisions (and definitely *not* the people). At the same time, it’s essential for this kind of system to work (and to *continue* working) to hide the truth from the majority, giving the impression that, although there *are* grave problems we are currently facing, we *basically* do have a democratic system. Otherwise, the now established structures would collapse very soon.

Claus

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By: Jean-Fr�d�ric Carter https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2913#comment-9638 Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:00:12 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/03/the_democracy_that_is_europe.html#comment-9638 Adam –
By the way, my comment on McCreevy’s nomination wasn’t so preposterous: you misunderstood me.
I wasn’t saying McCreevy was in the Commission because he was somehow pushed there by Microsoft, I was saying that, if McCreevy was in charge of the process of adoption of the software patent directive (inside the Commission), it wasn’t just a coincidence.
That’s it.

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By: Jean-Fr�d�ric Carter https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2913#comment-9637 Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:56:32 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/03/the_democracy_that_is_europe.html#comment-9637 Adam –
Thanks for these precisions! It will help us understanding the situation.
I did not know McCreevy was sent out of the Government, and found a safe harbor in the Commission.
By the way, I do not give full credit to Florian Mueller, I was just indicating my source of information on this topic. And I have no doubt that Florian might be a little bit biased too!
Why does it make you waver in your support?
I believe in Federalism too, and this kind of event convinces me to go further in this direction, and quicker…
Although it is true our (future) constitution is anything but Federalist.

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By: adam https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2913#comment-9636 Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:57:49 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/03/the_democracy_that_is_europe.html#comment-9636 Not everybody puts as much stock in Florian Mueller’s opinions as Jean-Fr�d�ric Carter. And it’s McCreevy, or McGreedy if we feel like a little satire. And the suggestion that he was “nominated for this purpose” is preposterous, McCreevy was nominated because the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) wanted him out of the way, period. He should probably consider himself lucky he’s in Brussels and not waking up next to a horse’s head every morning.

I’d be interested in genuine commentary on the constitution too btw, I’m a federalist but this kind of thing makes me waver in my support.

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By: Andrew McGuinness https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2913#comment-9635 Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:07:06 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/03/the_democracy_that_is_europe.html#comment-9635 To back up Branko Collin, the proposed Constitution has exactly the same legislative method that is being used here: i.e., the Council can ignore the Parliament’s decisions, and unless the Parliament acts within three months by an absolute majority, they are considered to have accepted it.

See page 117 of the following document (which is the fifth of about 60 pdf files making up the constitution).

http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/lex/LexUriServ/site/en/oj/2004/c_310/c_31020041216en00550185.pdf

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By: Phiip https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2913#comment-9634 Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:33:07 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/03/the_democracy_that_is_europe.html#comment-9634 I agree with the fact that the EU isn’t perfect.
Sure, there’s a lot of lobbying going on in Bruxelles,
lots of conflicts of interest.

But in the end, I can see that many european laws go on the right direction,
for a more fair and better environment for european humans.

So I don’t think we are more lobby-driven than the Us !

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By: Timo https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2913#comment-9633 Thu, 10 Mar 2005 05:32:05 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/03/the_democracy_that_is_europe.html#comment-9633 Seems to me there is a colossal failure to talk about the same thing on all sides of this issue. I’d like to raise a question or two on the substance of this directive, which seems to escape close examination in this debate (how democratic or otherwise the EU codecision procedure is, surely a worthy topic for another occasion…)

What is a “software patent” concept in this directive that so many people are so highly excited about ? Is it the “IPR maximalist” extreme i.e. that if anything is implementable in software, then surely it must be patentable [like the known offline business methods bconverted to digitized form that the U.S. Patent Office keeps handing out patents on] ? Or is it the “IPR minimalist” extreme i.e. that if anything is implementable in software, then surely it cannot be patentable in any shape or form ? Which is it ? What are we talking about ? One of these extremes or something in the middle ? What exactly does the directive text provide in this regard ? Seems to me that participants in this row do not agree on what are we talking about. No wonder, then that total confusion and huge acrimony reigns.

My take on the directive is that it is neither of the two extremes, and should not be either. Whether the “middle” that is being proposed is workable or not, that is a fair question. But we would surely defuse most of the heat around this if we could agree that the directive does not propose either extreme.

* * *
Many commentators here seem to suggest that open source software should be exempted from patents. A most interesting suggestion. Would anyone care to provide a rational justification for such an exemption – because of the community project nature of OSS development perhaps ? Another reason ? I completely share the feeling that there should be some limits to patents potentially blocking or imposing costs on stuff that *should* be usable by all of us but have doubts that a blanket exemption for OSS is the right way to go.

Timo

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By: Anny chen https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2913#comment-9632 Thu, 10 Mar 2005 00:25:06 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/03/the_democracy_that_is_europe.html#comment-9632 hi,everyboby,
i’m very happy to tell you a wonderful friend-making community,that is a website http://www.1257.com/blog,you can contact with us by email:[email protected]
a surprise is waiting for you!
Thank you !

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By: Jean-Fr�d�ric Carter https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2913#comment-9631 Wed, 09 Mar 2005 05:54:40 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/03/the_democracy_that_is_europe.html#comment-9631 Regarding Microsoft’s influence on this topic, I can tell you one thing.

As Florian Mueller points out on his website, Microsoft is the biggest tax provider in Ireland (because of Ireland’s tax dumping policy, Microsoft established a big part of its european decision center in Ireland and some manufactures too).

And the EU commissioner Mc Greevy, in charge of the process of adoption of the directive, was formerly the Irish Minister of Finance. He’s therefore Microsoft’s best friend in the Commission, and was basically nominated for this purpose.

And no doubt this has a lot to do with the fact that the process is going faster now.

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