Comments on: faces of frustration https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2772 2002-2015 Tue, 12 Oct 2004 16:06:47 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.7.2 By: ben https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2772#comment-7321 Tue, 12 Oct 2004 16:06:47 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/10/faces_of_frustration.html#comment-7321 the video is now at http://www.democrats.org/faces

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By: Max Lybbert https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2772#comment-7320 Fri, 08 Oct 2004 10:22:46 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/10/faces_of_frustration.html#comment-7320 Nate, would you please give some examples? It’s fun to accuse people, but I would like to see proof backing up the accusations.

Are you referring to the Iraqi war? If so, how do you refute that (as far as wars go) this one has gone pretty well? Are you referring to Bush’s claims that intelligence showed Saddam had WMDs? If so, how do you square that with Clinton’s similar claims, and Kerry’s similar claims, and Edwards’s similar claims?

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By: Nate https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2772#comment-7319 Fri, 08 Oct 2004 09:37:54 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/10/faces_of_frustration.html#comment-7319 Yes, the Democrats have become like the Republicans in their behavior. The Bush Team goes beyond both, however, in their insistence on calling black = white. I’ve not seen the likes of it since Nixon insisted he wasn’t a crook.

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By: Max Lybbert https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2772#comment-7318 Thu, 07 Oct 2004 11:20:33 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/10/faces_of_frustration.html#comment-7318 I am aware that Republicans have avoided escalating several fights because of the ghost of an increasing death toll. There was little criticism when Clinton withdrew from Somalia, for instance. Reagan withdrew from Beirut because of bombings against US barracks. Both sides share some guilt here.

Clinton also had no qualms about flexing military muscle as long as no Americans got hurt. Yes, I used that policy as an example of how Clinton ran things, and perhaps I shouldn’t have. Then again, when Clinton had good reason to attack US enemies, I don’t remember him being ridiculed for it. I am aware of one time Republicans criticized Clinton’s missile strikes, and that was an attack on an Iraqi “WMD research facility.” The ridicule came from the timing of the attack — the height of the Monica Lewinsky scandal. Could you point me to other examples?

As a country, we have avoided deadly actions since Viet Nam. That isn’t Clinton’s fault. But I’m not so sure Bush deserves criticism for the death toll in Iraq, if you recognize that the American desire for “only clean wars” was “was unrealistic” and “hampered the military.”

My point about the death toll is simple: the death toll from the current war isn’t enough, by itself, to call the action a mess. As far as a war can go, this one is going relativley well. Our enemies in Iraq have effectively nickle-and-dimed us for 18 months, so the numbers eventually added up. But, the numbers are much lower than even the most optimistic planners expected.

If you have other reasons the situation is a mess, I would like to hear them.

On the other hand, I don’t consider the Administration’s positive claims Orwellian, because (if you recall), the Administration doesn’t own the media. Any positive claims it makes should be vetted by the media before they are reported, and it appears that’s how things are going (aside from CBS’s poor record of repeating stories instead of reporting them).

So, when the Administration reports that there are now enough Iraqis to retake Samarra, and that other cities are next on the list, the media can confirm this. This appears to support the Administrations view that Iraqi forces are getting decent training and will be able to (one day) take over the country’s security concerns. When the Administration can point to large sections (i.e., 14 out of 18 provinces) where there is little or no terrorism, the media can verify this report. That isn’t Orwellian, unless you can point to something I’m missing.

And, no, I’m not missing the negative reporting. I know that the media reports negative stories as well. Americans then have the chance to look at both angles, and decide for themselves if they feel safer. This isn’t Orwellian, either.

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By: Joseph Pietro Riolo https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2772#comment-7317 Thu, 07 Oct 2004 09:36:33 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/10/faces_of_frustration.html#comment-7317 To Nate,

I notice that you mentioned Orwellian twice. I
want to point out that the Democratic Party employs
the same strategy. The Democratic Party would love
to mislead…oops…lead the Americans to believe
that its way – the Democratic Way – is the right
way, the only way, the truth. Kerry is trying to
tell the Americans that they will be much safer
when Kerry becomes president. Of course, it is
easier said than done. The bottom line is that all
what the Democratic Party wants is the power and
it does not give a damn about the truth.

In other words, the Democratic Party, as well as
the Republican Party, is not immune to the
Orwellian thinking.

Joseph Pietro Riolo
<[email protected]>

Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions
in this comment in the public domain.

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By: Nate https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2772#comment-7316 Wed, 06 Oct 2004 21:04:25 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/10/faces_of_frustration.html#comment-7316 The reason for the previous policy toward terrorist acts was due to American expectations based upon the Powell policy. They wanted only clean wars, something that was unrealistic, but one that hampered the military. Indeed, Republicans roundly ridiculed Clinton when he did launch missles, and never suggested sending in the troops. Complaining about the prior policy without acknowledging that it was a bipartisan policy is disingenuous.

I agree that you cannot compare wars. Different circumstances and all. My point was that there is no need to compare them. Just deal with the current one. The administration says things are going better than they actually are. You cannot get more Orwellian than that — that tactic is right out of the book.

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By: Max Lybbert https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2772#comment-7315 Wed, 06 Oct 2004 11:25:29 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/10/faces_of_frustration.html#comment-7315 Nate, I recognize that it’s almost impossible to compare wars. Our objectives in Kuwait were much different from our objectives in Iraq.

If we look only at the first month of Iraqi Freedom, we had 130(+/-) deaths, and that was the actual invasion part. All of Desert Storm was invasion, and we lost about 200 people per month (or 300 [+/-] for the six week invasion). After the actual invasion, our casualties have dropped considerably, and we are now losing 60 people a month.

Of course that means 60 families lose a spouse, child and/or parent. But as wars go, that’s about as good as you can hope for.

My point is that Desert Storm had widespread public support (largely because it lasted “days”), and Iraqi Freedom has been labeled a quagmire (largely because it has lasted 18 months) although it is going better in some respects than Desert Storm.

Regarding terrorism, the reason 2001 had such a large American death toll is because of the previous policy of only reacting to attacks by launching missiles. That atmosphere made it possible to plan the largest terrorist attacks in history.

Going after terrorists where they live will obviously lead to short-term increases in terrorism. Over time the idea of being a jihadist will lose some of its appeal. Cheney made an interesting comment last night that Palestinian suicide bombers are starting to dwindle, partly because their families no longer get checks from Saddam Hussein. Even Arabian terrorists think rationally and can be deterred if the cost-benefit analysis doesn’t work out.

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By: Anonymous https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2772#comment-7314 Wed, 06 Oct 2004 10:54:46 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/10/faces_of_frustration.html#comment-7314 You can’t view the video using Firefox on an Apple Powerbook, or at least I can’t.

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By: Nate https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2772#comment-7313 Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:46:26 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/10/faces_of_frustration.html#comment-7313 That’s an interesting way to compare wars, since the first was over in a matter of days, and the current one is dragging on month after month after month. Indeed, the Administration is talking about being in Iraq for years, and we saw how that worked out in Vietnam.

Americans are not safer today because terrorism is on the rise around the world, and more Americans have died in the last year in terrorist attacks than in any year other than 2001.

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By: Max Lybbert https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2772#comment-7312 Wed, 06 Oct 2004 09:42:10 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/10/faces_of_frustration.html#comment-7312 Oops. Al Sadr was thrown out of Najaf. He did go with his weapons but:

  • he had lost enough men that he was negotiating with US forces;
  • he clearly was smacked down by bigger Shi’ite clerics; and,
  • he can’t take another shrine, while anywhere else he goes will be bombed
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