Comments on: captured characters from our (very long ago) past https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2329 2002-2015 Wed, 25 Jun 2014 11:00:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.7.2 By: eddy nguyen https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2329#comment-4013 Wed, 25 Jun 2014 11:00:00 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2003/08/captured_characters_from_our_v.html#comment-4013 During this hanoi
street food tour
, you have chances to ride electric bus to
discover the 36 ancient Streets of hanoi food
tour
with its ancient buildings and temples, transparent lakes and
old cultural features, and an unforgettable water puppetry show, sample
delicious Vietnamese cuisine just like the locals do – on the street food
hanoi
, stroll through hidden alleyways and bustling markets of
street
food tour hanoi
, learn more about Hanoi’s unique hanoi street
food
culture, try local specialties with influences from French and
Chinese cuisine and take in a spectacular night view of Hoan Kiem lake from a
secret cafe.

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By: AA https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2329#comment-4012 Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:38:53 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2003/08/captured_characters_from_our_v.html#comment-4012 I just read your comments about Superman…here is a question for you… I want to send out an e-invitation for an event. The focus of the event is “The Hero Lies in You” am I able to use the traditional superman logo on the invitation? Or does that violate trademark law? I think the invitation will go out to 500 people. Just curious where I stand legally.

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By: Parsons 210 https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2329#comment-4011 Mon, 06 Oct 2003 04:21:23 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2003/08/captured_characters_from_our_v.html#comment-4011 Two very specific comments that I’d love to get an expert opinion on to see if I understand this correctly

1- Vis PETER PAN- the UK act talks about a compulsory license. Does this mean the hospital MUST give it if requested and paid for? IE, if the author of After the Rain wanted one (and I am not suggesting she needs one) would she HAVE to be given one? and as a subsidiary of this, Sony Pictures is releasing a $100 million dollar Peter Pan this Christmas. Now under your argument, nothing stops me from doing a $2 million dollar horror film version with the characters all over the world because of PD- but if I WANTED to pay for a license to do the horror film, would the hospital HAVE to grant it?
2- vis Tarzan- leaving aside Disney for a second as a possible misread because it is Burroughs that has the Tarzan trademark- with them granting a TV license to WB network and the film rights to Warners even as we speak… but since the first 7 or so books are inarguably PD in the world (are they not? the first Tarzan was published in 1913 and Burroughs died in 1950) the question is if I wanted to say do a huge film in which I use the characters of Jane, Tarzan and Boy exactly as they are portrayed in book one, but call them Lord and Lady Greystoke (assuming no mark exists for that and I doubt there is) can Burroughs Estate stop me legally?

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By: Robert Claypool https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2329#comment-4010 Sun, 07 Sep 2003 23:18:08 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2003/08/captured_characters_from_our_v.html#comment-4010 I believe we would be a lot better off if the only thing that trademarks deterred were other marks used to identify origin of good, and should only be granted when it doesn’t describe the good.

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By: Adam Goldstein https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2329#comment-4009 Fri, 05 Sep 2003 11:46:07 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2003/08/captured_characters_from_our_v.html#comment-4009 Not exactly true–Superman made his first apperance in Action Comics #1 in 1938, but daily strips started in 1933. Not that it makes a huge difference, as it was published in 1939. For works with such a publication date, there was a 28-year copyright term with a 67-year renewal term. Access to the renewal term, however, depending on registration at the time. Not all of the strips/drawings were correctly registered, or registered at all; not all of those that were correctly registered were renewed. Some of the original cartoons are in the public domain for the same reason.

Is there any reason to believe you would not be sued by Disney? No, no reason to believe that at all. In fact, you probably would be sued by D.C. and Disney. People sue all the time when they’re in the wrong, particularly copyright holders. As long as you’ve got a reasonably copyright-literate judge (hopefully not one in the 9th Circuit), you’d win as far as using the original Superman goes. (But remember, the original Superman is significantly different than the modern one . . .) And it is exactly like the “After the Rain” situation, because in both cases the copyright holders would be full of baloney.

Trademarks are trade marks–marks intended to designate origin in trade. When D.C. comics puts the Superman logo on a comic book cover, they want you to see Superman and think, “This book came from D.C. comics and I want to buy comics from them, because they write quality comic books.” This is in stark contrast from the purpose of a copyright, which is to be compensated for the reproduction/distribution/creation of derivatives (at least as far as print copyrights go) of a work. If you put a drawing of, or a story about, the original Superman on the INSIDE of a book, and don’t refer to him on the outside, it’s hard to argue that you used Superman “in trade.” Nobody would know Superman is there until buying the book (or reading it at a library, in which case it wouldn’t be in trade anyway).

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By: Adam Goldstein https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2329#comment-4008 Fri, 05 Sep 2003 11:44:52 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2003/08/captured_characters_from_our_v.html#comment-4008 Not exactly true–Superman made his first apperance in Action Comics #1 in 1938, but daily strips started in 1933. Not that it makes a huge difference, as it was published in 1939. For works with such a publication date, there was a 28-year copyright term with a 67-year renewal term. Access to the renewal term, however, depending on registration at the time. Not all of the strips/drawings were correctly registered, or registered at all; not all of those that were correctly registered were renewed. Some of the original cartoons are in the public domain for the same reason.

Is there any reason to believe you would not be sued by Disney? No, no reason to believe that at all. In fact, you probably would be sued by D.C. and Disney. People sue all the time when they’re in the wrong, particularly copyright holders. As long as you’ve got a reasonably copyright-literate judge (hopefully not one in the 9th Circuit), you’d win as far as using the original Superman goes. (But remember, the original Superman is significantly different than the modern one . . .) And it is exactly like the “After the Rain” situation, because in both cases the copyright holders would be full of baloney.

Trademarks are trade marks–marks intended to designate origin in trade. When D.C. comics puts the Superman logo on a comic book cover, they want you to see Superman and think, “This book came from D.C. comics and I want to buy comics from them, because they write quality comic books.” This is in stark contrast from the purpose of a copyright, which is to be compensated for the reproduction/distribution/creation of derivatives (at least as far as print copyrights go) of a work. If you put a drawing of, or a story about, the original Superman on the INSIDE of a book, and don’t refer to him on the outside, it’s hard to argue that you used Superman “in trade.” Nobody would know Superman is there until buying the book (or reading it at a library, in which case it wouldn’t be in trade anyway).

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By: Ken Horowitz https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2329#comment-4007 Fri, 05 Sep 2003 10:37:31 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2003/08/captured_characters_from_our_v.html#comment-4007 Adam — what makes you say the original Superman is “very much in the public domain”? Is it the fact that some comic books and the Fleisher cartoons have lapsed copyrights? Note that Superman didn’t make his first appearance until 1938, a decade after Mickey Mouse first came on the scene. Isn’t Mickey still protected?

Does this mean that I could write and sell my own stories featuring Superman and Mickey Mouse in book form? (Assume here we’re talking about text only, so as to avoid the issues of the trademarks of graphics.) Is there any reason to believe that I would NOT be sued by DC Comics and Disney? Aren’t these exactly the issues in the “After the Rain” situation?

I’m unclear on the distinction between use of a character “in trade” and “as a character”.

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By: Crosbie Fitch https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2329#comment-4006 Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:44:19 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2003/08/captured_characters_from_our_v.html#comment-4006 How about creating a new charitable corporation/entity (call it ‘The Public Trust’) to represent a less passive ‘public domain’? This would be an entity to which people could transfer the copyright/trademarks of their works to on the understanding that it would jealously guard them. However, it would grant a kind of ‘Open Source’ license that would permit free use of those works so long as derivatives were also subject (became similarly entrusted to the ‘Public Trust’).

This way, companies like Disney couldn’t pick up stuff belonging to the Public Trust and then assimilate them.

I guess the ‘public domain’ can be compared to a BSD type license (or an even weaker one), whereas the Public Trust would be a GPL type of license.

Ultimately, law should make the public domain behave precisely like the Public Trust, i.e. once works enter the public domain they can’t be removed or restricted.

Any time a work belonging to the Public Trust was infringed, interested parties could act on its behalf, although, you never know, it might have received sufficient donations to afford the legal services itself.

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By: Adam Goldstein https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2329#comment-4005 Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:57:23 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2003/08/captured_characters_from_our_v.html#comment-4005 Trademark and copyright aren’t particularly in conflict. Use of Mickey Mouse in trade is different from use of Mickey Mouse as a character. The original version of Superman is very much in the public domain, and you can use Superman in your stories, but publishing a Superman comic book might be unwise. The mere fact that it correctly describes the character doesn’t diminish D.C.’s rights to use the character’s name in trade. Bottom line being that a trademark does not expire so long as it’s used in trade. When you have overlaps, such as, say, the original Superman logo being used on a t-shirt (copyright-wise in the public domain, trademark-wise still protected as D.C. still sells similar shirts), trademark law still blocks such a use.

Interesting thing about the original Superman (the one currently in the public domain), though . . . he couldn’t fly. Hence the “able to leap tall buildings in a single bound” statement. When you think about it, that doesn’t make any sense to say about someone who flies, does it?

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By: Ken Horwitz https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2329#comment-4004 Thu, 04 Sep 2003 16:02:51 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2003/08/captured_characters_from_our_v.html#comment-4004 Here’s another vote for some serious commentary from Larry about the interplay between copyright and trademark law. For example, there are individual Bugs Bunny cartoons and Superman comic books that have fallen out of copyright; the characters of Bugs and Superman are protected trademarks. Do the trademarks trump the lapsed copyrights? Does it matter if the lapsed copyrights are the *first* appearance of a character? (For example, if the copyright on “Steamboat Willie” were to lapse, would the trademark on Mickey Mouse still trump the lapsed copyright?)

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