Comments on: Question for Libertarians https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2683 2002-2015 Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:56:33 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.7.2 By: dwitt https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2683#comment-5886 Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:56:33 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/08/question_for_libertarians.html#comment-5886 to me, the whole concept of IP as it’s being promoted today is basically a ‘land grab’ by the business world–the original copywrite laws were generally well-balanced, providing for both the orginator, and the public good–the system has been gamed by large corporations, such as Disney, who can afford to hire lawyers, lobbyists, politicians to advance their interests–what’s worse is IP in the area of computer programming–far too many patents are being awarded for ‘innovations’ that are either overly broad, obvious to experts in the field, or covered by previous art–the effect of this is to stifle innovation, and to balkanize technology…

the best analogy is comparing a computer Operating System to the highway system–with proprietary solutions, we’d end up with a bunch of toll roads, while with Free/Open Source software, it is a commons, built and maintained by the community!

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By: phnk https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2683#comment-5885 Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:34:52 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/08/question_for_libertarians.html#comment-5885 phnk, the point about support for private property substitues is a good one. But I think odds are private DRM will never get far without government action (or?). Big collective action problem.
(quoted from a comment by Tim Wu)

Private DRM needs WIPO WCT/WPPT treaties to condemn DRM or RMI circumvention (WCT art 12/13 if I recall well). They also need effective enforcement and sanctioning (IP with teeth : TRIPS).

Rather than government action, I would suggest international bodies support is requested.

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By: garym https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2683#comment-5884 Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:17:35 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/08/question_for_libertarians.html#comment-5884 I’ve been trying for some time to come up with a libertarian theory of intellectual property. Like physical property, intellectual property (when properly construed) represents a product of someone’s effort, and the creator should be entitled to have control over it and to reap its benefits. Unlike physical property, intellectual property can be “taken” without depriving the owner of the original. So the theory has to be somewhat different.

Some tentative thoughts: To be claimed as a right under law, a creation should be non-trivial, and unlikely to be duplicated by others independently.

With abusive intellectual property claims, such as trivial software patents, the patent holder can become the one who’s getting free benefit from the efforts of others.

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By: Mike Kay https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2683#comment-5883 Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:51:55 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/08/question_for_libertarians.html#comment-5883 This might be slightly offtopic, but nevertheless I hope it is interesting and related.

1) In Russia the new copyright law had been enacted by Pres. V.Putin on July 28, 2004. This created a MAJOR public outcry. This law outlaws pretty much any online library. Note that online libraries in Russia have significantly different social meaning vs. the US. Consider for instance the site http://www.lib.ru – it carries about 5GB of texts in .txt format, including major Russian and Western classics (translations as well as some originals), poetry and contemporary literature. People consider reading a book (on paper OR online) as their _natural_right_. If necessary, they did it underground as “Samizdat” during the Soviet times, they do it openly now. Reprinting a book had always been considered an act of courage or otherwise a positive activity spreading the enlightment. It is not a habit however to even think of such “nonsence” as royalties, esp. if the original author has deceased. E.g. something like extension of copyright locks on the Mickey Mouse cause bewilderment and sarcasm.

2) Significant problem with current copyright laws, its enforcement and the evolving technology is the rigid corporate structure, which is not flexible enough to embrace the new reality. For instance, if you consider a “liquid content”, the cost of PROCESSING the royalty payments on a single track according to the RIAA standards costs MORE, than the VALUE of the royalty. Moreover, the behemots of the recording industry have a very vague idea of how to proceed. So far they chose the administrative and legal actions vs. positive creativity. That’s sad. They tried to do something – e.g. about 150 mil. spent by Sony on the failed project to address the above reality; the emerging joint venture between Warner and Universal… Will see. It is reasonable to expect however that DRM-like and RIAA-like actions will have only limited success if at all, unless they work out a successful strategy for cost processing and redistribution. However if they succeed in policing rather than in business model evolution, that would be devastating. Here in the US we already face a Soviet-like reality (random checks in Boston T; pending prohibition of the photography in NYC Subway, library records subpoenas, etc). USSR operated as a single large corporation, including the policing of content/information redistribution. The different reason had been put on the banners (political rather than economical) but the outcome is the same. To top it off if we get draconian rules on redistribution of the INFORMATION and content, bringing the look’n’feel of everyday intellectual life very close to – NOT even a Soviet Union (where intellectuals always laughed off the System), but rather North Korea.

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By: Daniel Arbuckle https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2683#comment-5882 Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:37:21 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/08/question_for_libertarians.html#comment-5882 In my view, intellectual property is directly antagonistic to the concept of property as applied to physical objects. Intellectual property law means, fundamentally, that you can sit in your own garage, pick up a bunch of materials that you own, and build something that you *don’t* own. If you refuse to recognise the other party’s ownership of your construction, eventually people with guns come and make you give it up.

That situation is definately not consistent with libertarian ideals.

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By: Branko Collin https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2683#comment-5881 Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:40:34 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/08/question_for_libertarians.html#comment-5881 David, excellent suggestions. Larry Lessig and Eric Eldred have proposed a law along those lines, where a work would return to the public 50 years after its first publication, unless the copyright holder renew it.

BTW, let me show you where I am coming from. I run a website about Dutch text adventures. These are a kind of computer game still produced today, but which had their heyday in the 1980s.

In those days, games were distributed either on cassette tapes of floppy disks. Both are magnetic media with extremely short lifespans. You can imagine that without the many, many ‘criminals’ around the world who made illegal copies of these games, an entire part of our culture (and that part shaped a large part of my journey to adulthood) would have disappeared. In this case, even 50 years would not have helped; 5 to 10 would have been cutting it close.

I try and contact authors of these games and ask them to release the games as freeware (or really any license they like). Sometimes I am successful, as with Dracula, the oldest Dutch text adventure. Unfortunately, the author could not find all the versions he made. The most prolific Dutch game writer of that time sees his work as a 1980s game author for the C64 as a chapter of a closed book, so a lot of his games (although some are available illegally) will probably not survive.

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By: Anonymous https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2683#comment-5880 Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:04:28 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/08/question_for_libertarians.html#comment-5880 The thing is, “Libertarians” aren’t really a monobloc, and never have been. People whose fundamental concern is liberty are libertarians whether or not they call themselves that, and people whose fundamental concern is not liberty aren’t. If you are a libertarian, by definition, the economic consequences of liberty are, at best, secondary to liberty. I.E. liberty trumps business, capitalism, etc.
If you read, say Benjamin Tucker, you will find an argument that the free market is incompatible with corporate hegemony.
Now many “self-proclaimed” libertarians may be in fact, in favor of corporate hegemony. But either:
A – they support government efforts to artificially prop-up big business (and many do, admittedly)
B – they hold the same delusions about a free market that many leftists do (which is understandable, given the state of economic education today)

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By: David Nesting https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2683#comment-5879 Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:35:03 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/08/question_for_libertarians.html#comment-5879 “…then in most cases that will be bad for the work.”

I agree only in the literal sense. The “work” doesn’t enjoy the same amount of exposure than it might ordinarily. It’s good, however, for the copyright holder. He now has the ability to sell copies of or access to his work and profit from it, depending upon the market’s demand.

Perhaps I should have written “I believe that an author’s rights to profit from his own works should be protected.” I wasn’t trying to suggest that the work itself enjoy some sort of protection not typically afforded by copyright law, though a good copyright law should not allow this works to disappear simply because the author still holds copyrights over it but otherwise has completely forgotten about its existence. This is one major tragedy of our current copyright system (and, more directly, the numerous extensions granted). As they say, there are silent films that are still under copyright and are disappearing from existence, because it’s illegal to copy them, and the copyright holders don’t care. I shudder to consider how much easier this will be in a digital world, when it’s illegal to copy a piece of data that is never fixed in permanent storage. If I’m not allowed to hold on to it for even a few minutes, how am I supposed to hold onto it for the life of the author + 70 years for it to enter the public domain? And what storage medium could hope to last that long? I do agree with these points, though I wasn’t attempting to discuss them in my earlier post.

“In the long run, most works are being destroyed by copyright,”

Once the author has had a reasonable amount of time to reap whatever profits he can from his work, his copyright should lapse and the work should enter the public domain (or, for those in the “credit where credit is due” camp, a tremendously expanded form of “fair use” would begin, perhaps just requiring derivatives not to act like the work is entirely their own). This can only happen with a more reasonable interpretation of “limited time”.

force the author to take protection measures

Perhaps a good compromise can do both? Allow the author some exclusive rights automatically, for, say, 5 years, and after that, he has to take positive steps to protect his copyright up to a maximum of, say, 20 years.

One has to balance the needs of the smaller authors and copyright holders with the larger copyright holders. Specifically, how much money would Disney lose by losing Mickey Mouse? How much does society lose by keeping a good work suppressed for the next hundred years “just in case” the holder (or, say, his great-great grandchildren, because the author sure as heck isn’t going to have a use for it 70 years after he’s dead) might want to make another few dollars?

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By: Matt https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2683#comment-5878 Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:44:19 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/08/question_for_libertarians.html#comment-5878 I’m a bit muddled on the question of IP in general. I’m sympathetic to the idea that somebody who writes a brilliant novel or spends years coming up with a path-breaking invention ought to be able to reap some unusual rewards for those accomplishments.

I hate the idea of a world where every useful concept, idea, or approach “belongs” to a group of rent-seeking creeps.

I don’t feel like I’ve got any special insight in finding the right balance there. Copyrights and patents don’t sound bad in principle, but my feeling is they’re getting abused and we are sliding much too far toward the world of rent-seeking creeps.

I probably would have leaned more the other way ten years ago, and I suspect libertarians in general would have. Being a computer geek and seeing the jackassery of software patents, the DMCA, and the spectre of pervasive DRM has made it clearer to me how easily IP can be abused.

You might get in touch with Jimbo Wales. He’s the lead guy of Wikipedia, and is obviously has a great deal of affection for the project and the free sharing of information. Unless things have changed in the last few years, he’s also a staunch Objectivist. He’s an articulate guy and might have some interesting thoughts on the differences between IP and physical property from that POV.

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By: Branko Collin https://archives.lessig.org/?p=2683#comment-5877 Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:32:07 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2004/08/question_for_libertarians.html#comment-5877 “I believe that an author�s work should be protected. The copyright holder should have exclusive rights to sell or give away his works.”

In my opinion, your beliefs are contradictory here. If a work is burdened by copyright, that is, if only the author controls its distribution, then in most cases that will be bad for the work. In the long run, most works are being destroyed by copyright, because it is often not in the interest of the author to invest time and money to keep the work alive. So works that are under copyright are far from being protected by copyright.

The best protection for a work is to either remove the copyright, or to force the author to take protection measures. The latter would probably come down to some form of mandatory licensing. Both methods enable parties other than the author to disseminate and distribute the work, thereby keeping it alive and protected.

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