Comments on: Traditionalism https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3038 2002-2015 Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:18:12 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.7.2 By: rodander https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3038#comment-11278 Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:18:12 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/07/traditionalism.html#comment-11278 I’m confused by knauss’ comments. Have not communications services improved in capability yet cost less following deregulation? Can we have imagined, 30 years ago, that long distance phone calls would be as inexpensive as they are today ($10/month unlimited in some wireless plans?)? Data services for what we now pay? Being able to buy one’s one telephone handset and plug it into the wall? And in which public emergency has phone service failed that would not have failed before?

Indeed, the failure of competitors occurs in competitive markets, esp. when fraud is involved. But really.

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By: knauss https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3038#comment-11277 Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:23:30 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/07/traditionalism.html#comment-11277 Thank you for the sharing the extended quote from Burke. I had been meaning to dig out my old college copy to hunt for this section.
It strikes me that perhaps the free market advocates, “conservatives”, should have paid more heed to it before the utility industries were revolutionized by deregulation. It is not clear that the changes to our infrastructure institutions have been a raving success or secure for us what we need for these times. Worldcom, Global Crossing, et. al.
Blackouts, shortages, cell phone and out of service public phones that are no use to us in an public emergancy.
We seem to have forgotten that the institutions evolved to address concerns of public saftey and good and natural monopolies. By this train of logic, the rioters in the streets of Bolivia for water were followers of Burke not Robespierre.

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By: rodander https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3038#comment-11276 Sun, 24 Jul 2005 12:01:17 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/07/traditionalism.html#comment-11276 But it is just so annoying, to the cool moral relativists, that some of those “beliefs” actually are absolutely true. It would be so much easier (for them) if that weren’t the case.

“”Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four.” – 1984

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By: three blind mice https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3038#comment-11275 Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:46:07 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/07/traditionalism.html#comment-11275 I so much want to wander aimlessly through life pointing out how non-absolute everything is and laughing dismissively at people who believe in stuff.

apparently, corey, you can no more do this than we can march through life with cromwellian purpose sternly insisting that our own beliefs represent the absolute truths which must be imposed on everyone else.

“seven years of college, down the drain” – animal house

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By: Corey https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3038#comment-11274 Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:29:42 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/07/traditionalism.html#comment-11274 “truth, like justice, is a relative term “

Oooh, your moral relativism is so trendly and cool. Can
I be like you? I so much want to wander aimlessly through life pointing out how non-absolute everything is and laughing dismissively at people who believe in stuff. How neat.

“We are nihlists!” — The Big Lebowski

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By: three blind mice https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3038#comment-11273 Sat, 23 Jul 2005 06:37:36 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/07/traditionalism.html#comment-11273 Justice and change are not inherently related. Those who want change call it just because who would call themselves unjust?

However, people are so brilliant that they can tell the difference between tired tradition reinforcing itself and “the wisdom of the ages”. It starts with a few, then if there is truth to it, others join.

Jack Diederich 1, Corey 0

truth, like justice, is a relative term used most often to define/defend an absolutist point of view.

Format wars hasten the death of media content, people stop reading the classics, and the United States has a King again.

and burnt orange is the new black.

tastes change corey. get over it.

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By: Corey https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3038#comment-11272 Sat, 23 Jul 2005 05:14:06 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/07/traditionalism.html#comment-11272 However, people are so brilliant that they can tell the difference between tired tradition reinforcing itself and “the wisdom of the ages”. It starts with a few, then if there is truth to it, others join.

“Tradition” is limited by memory, which is limited to lifespan of humans plus whatever myths we continue to pass on. Wisdom is lost every day, with the elderly slowly forgetting, sitting alone in the magnificant poorhouses we have invented for them. Format wars hasten the death of media content, people stop reading the classics, and the United States has a King again.

I wish I could go back to being 15 and disaffected Jack, and you sound like you could use it too.

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By: rodander https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3038#comment-11271 Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:03:18 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/07/traditionalism.html#comment-11271 From Theodore Dalrymple, in the preface to Our Culture: What’s Left of It (I think):

This is not to say, of course, that all criticism of social conventions and traditions is destructive or unjustified; surely no society in the world can have existed in which there was not much to criticize. But critics of social institutions and traditions, including writers of imaginative literature, should always be aware that civilization needs conservation as least as much as it needs change, and that immoderate criticism, or criticism from the standpoint of utopian first principles is capable of doing much–indeed devastating–harm. No man is so brilliant that he can work out everything for himself, so that the wisdom of ages has nothing useful to tell him. To imagine otherwise is to indulge in the most egotistical of hubris.

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By: Jack Diederich https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3038#comment-11270 Fri, 22 Jul 2005 20:07:57 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/07/traditionalism.html#comment-11270 Hey Cory, would you encourage social justice, equality, fairness, harmony, and I-can-only-image-what as traditions worth instilling and upholding? Strangely you only list a litany of things you are against as traditional. Revolutionary? French revolutionary? Indeed. Much blood was spilled against the old order in that revolution when everyone agreed the old order had to go. They did that a few times and I’m sure you could lend some good ideas for the Sixth Republic too.

Those who want to upset the current order are typically the current losers who hope for something better. That doesn’t mean tradition or the current order is unfair, it just means they dream of not sucking so much. Why has the American revolution held together as long as it has when its propoents were members of the privileged order ? Franklin, an old man, gladly saw his loyalist son jailed. The “Indians” in the Boston tea party were the most well to do in Boston. They held a revolution anyway and theirs currently holds the record for old age.

Justice and change are not inherently related. Those who want change call it just because who would call themselves unjust? Ditto for the other side. Someone has a quippy name for the rule that goes “any country with Republic or Democracy in its name isn’t.”

You may resume being 15 and disaffected.
(apparently I’m in a bad mood today. But don’t wait for an apology)

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By: rodander https://archives.lessig.org/?p=3038#comment-11269 Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:51:40 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/07/traditionalism.html#comment-11269 But how does one (or a group) discern whether a tradition is “a cascade or group polarization” or (as per Corey) a “settled prejudice”, on the one hand, or wisdom, on the other hand? In other words, how is it that Gandhi and MLK turned out to be right, while other revolutionaries (name your failure) turned out to be wrong?

I have an answer in mind, but I wonder what the others think (before throwing out my answer as red meat).

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